Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/08/1998 01:13 PM House JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE
April 8, 1998
1:13 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Joe Green, Chairman
Representative Con Bunde, Vice Chairman
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Norman Rokeberg
Representative Jeannette James
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Eric Croft
Representative Ethan Berkowitz
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
* HOUSE BILL NO. 473
"An Act relating to training and certification of fire fighters,
fire instructors, and certain emergency responders; and providing
for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
* HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 60
Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska
relating to the community dividend fund, the permanent fund, and
the budget reserve fund.
- MOVED HJR 60 OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HOUSE BILL NO. 474
"An Act relating to correctional officers."
- MOVED HB 474 OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 473
SHORT TITLE: FIRE TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION
SPONSOR(S): STATE AFFAIRS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
3/24/98 2722 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
3/24/98 2723 (H) JUDICIARY
4/08/98 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
BILL: HJR 60
SHORT TITLE: COMMUNITY DIVIDEND FUND
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) DAVIS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
2/16/98 2328 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
2/16/98 2328 (H) JUDICIARY, FINANCE
3/11/98 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
3/11/98 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
4/08/98 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
BILL: HB 474
SHORT TITLE: CERTIFY MUNICIPAL CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS
SPONSOR(S): JUDICIARY
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
3/27/98 2770 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
3/27/98 2770 (H) JUDICIARY
4/08/98 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 110
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3779
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 473.
JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor
City of Kenai
210 Fidalgo
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 283-7539
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. Testified in
support of HJR 60.
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Public Safety
P.O. Box 111200
Juneau, Alaska 99811-1200
Telephone: (907) 465-4322
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473.
CRAIG GOODRICH, Director State Fire Marshal
Division of Fire Prevention
Department of Public Safety
5700 East Tudor Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99507-1225
Telephone: (907) 269-5491
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473.
KEVIN KELLY, Member
Rural Deltana Fire Department;
Vice President, Rural Deltana Fire Protection District
P.O. Box 40
Delta Junction, Alaska 99737
Telephone: (907) 869-3301
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473.
AUDREY BROWN, Member
Rural Deltana Fire Department
P.O. Box 990
Delta Junction, Alaska 99737
Telephone: (907) 895-4537
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473.
MICHAEL McGOWAN, President
Alaska Fire Chiefs Association
1460 Old Richardson Highway
Fairbanks, Alaska 99705
Telephone: (907) 474-7916
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473.
DAVID TYLER
P.O. Box 3023
Homer, Alaska 99603
Telephone: (907) 235-3155
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473.
DAVID SQUIRES
P.O. Box 176
Seward, Alaska 99664
Telephone: (907) 224-3445
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473.
JASON ELSON
210 Fidalgo
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 283-7666
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 473.
SCOTT WALDEN
210 Fidalgo
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 283-7666
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 473.
DAVE BURNETT
P.O. Box 3670
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 283-3054
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473.
REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 513
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2693
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HJR 60.
DEB DAVIDSON, Legislative Administrative Assistant
to Representative Gary Davis
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 513
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2693
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered question on HJR 60.
GEORGE CARNAHAN
P.O. Box 8202
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 776-5570
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HJR 60.
KEVIN RITCHIE, Executive Director
Alaska Municipal League
217 Second Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-1325
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HJR 60.
LADDIE SHAW, Executive Director
Alaska Police Standards Council
P.O. Box 111200
Juneau, Alaska 99811-1200
Telephone: (907) 465-4378
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered question on HB 474.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-58, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN called the House Judiciary Standing Committee
meeting to order at 1:13 p.m. Members present at the call to order
were Representatives Green, Bunde, Porter and James.
Representative Rokeberg arrived at 1:40 p.m.
HB 473 - FIRE TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION
Number 0037
CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the first item of business would be HB
473, "An Act relating to training and certification of fire
fighters, fire instructors, and certain emergency responders; and
providing for an effective date."
CHAIRMAN GREEN called on Representative Mark Hodgins, sponsor of
the bill.
Number 0057
REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS, Alaska State Legislature, explained
the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association came forward and asked him for
some legislation. It was after the cutoff for individuals to
sponsor bills, therefore, he had the House State Affairs Standing
Committee sponsor it. The association wants to set up a system
similar to the Alaska Police Standards Council for firefighters.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS further stated he has an amendment that
would shorten the bill. The firefighters support the amendment.
The bill would probably not go through if there is a fiscal note,
therefore, the firefighters would like to see it put into statute
and they will develop the revenue means to set the standards and
operate the council through the local municipalities.
Number 0176
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Representative Hodgins whether he has
discussed this with the Department of Public Safety that has
submitted the fiscal note.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "Yes."
CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered whether the department is willing to
withdraw its fiscal note.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "We'll wait and see."
CHAIRMAN GREEN noted for the record Representatives Bunde, James,
Green and Porter are present for a quorum.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked Chairman Green when he would like him
to offer the amendment.
CHAIRMAN GREEN replied it is his pleasure. He asked Representative
Hodgins whether the amendment significantly changes what is before
the committee.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "No."
Number 0260
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained Amendment 1. It reads as follows:
TO: CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 473, Draft version "E"
Page 1, line 1
Delete "fighters and fire instructors"
Insert "service professionals"
Page 1, line 5
Delete "Fighters"
Page 2, line 31
Insert "approve and/or"
Page 3, line 3
Insert "approve and/or"
Page 3, line 21
Delete "fighters and fire instructors"
Page 3, line 23 - 31
Delete all
Page 4, line 1 - 31
Delete all
Page 5, line 1 - 15
Delete all
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained the amendment would change the
title to read, "An Act relating to training and certification of
fire service professionals and providing for an effective date."
It would delete the wording "fighters" and "fire instructors" from
the title.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 1, line 5, the word
"Fighters" would be deleted.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 2, line 31, the wording
"approve and/or" would be added.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 3, the wording
"approve and/or" would be added.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 21, the wording
"fighters and fire instructor" would be deleted.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 23 through page 5,
line 15, all wording would be deleted thereby removing the
definitions and directions. Basically, the Alaska Fire Chiefs
Association wants to meet as a council and figure out what
direction it wants to go and take.
Number 0399
REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE made a motion to adopt Amendment 1.
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES objected for discussion purposes.
Number 0409
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES referred to page 2, starting on line 31, and
asked Representative Hodgins whether the language "fire fighter or
fire instructor" should be left, or should it read "fire
professionals." The amendment changes other references to the
wording "fire fighter or fire instructor." It is also referred to
in more places.
Number 0430
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied he would like to leave the wording
there.
Number 0466
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER stated the language being deleted seems
to be the essence of the bill. A person cannot be appointed a fire
fighter or fire instructor unless certified. He asked
Representative Hodgins whether he is suggesting that it be left to
regulations.
Number 0487
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied he just received the amendment a
half hour ago. He feels a little bit uncomfortable removing all of
this, but the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association wants to.
Number 0523
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated he is generally familiar with this
area having served for ten years on the Alaska Police Standards
Council. He thinks what is being deleted is the part of public
policy that should be established by the legislature - the
standards. Certainly, the recommendation should come from the
professionals, but the establishment of the policy should come from
the legislature. He does not have a problem receiving a
recommendation from the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association, but it
should be adopted by the legislature.
Number 0618
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked Chairman Green whether it is possible to
put the amendment away until testimony is given on the bill.
CHAIRMAN GREEN replied that would be...
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS agreed to do it that way.
Number 0653
JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor, City of Kenai, testified via teleconference
in Kenai. He noted that Dave Burnett is here, a 27-year member of
the fire department and chief executive officer for the new fire
training institute. He also noted that Jason Elson and Scott
Walden are here from the fire department. He said he has been very
pleased to have been part of the development of the bill over the
last several months.
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Williams whether he can speak to the
amendment.
MR. WILLIAMS replied he just received the committee substitute.
Number 0767
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES made a motion to adopt the proposed committee
substitute for HB 473, Version E, 0-LS1650\E, Lauterbach, 3/25/98.
There being no objection, it was so adopted.
Number 0798
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety,
explained Mayor Williams and the fire chief from Kenai talked to
the commissioner and himself about establishing standards at which
time the police standards model was suggested. It has made sense
for the police and has improved the quality of officers. Having
said that, Commissioner Otte's concern is the placement of the
council within the Department of Public Safety. The department has
within it the fire marshall who is the chief building inspector for
the state. Otherwise, the department has little to do with fire
service and actual fire fighting. If this is going to be created,
he suggested including it in another department rather than
automatically putting it inside the Department of Public Safety
just because it falls within the broad view of public safety. His
main objection to that is the fiscal note of $178,000, which
includes an executive director, an office, and clerical support.
Given the cap system since he has been a deputy commissioner, if
there is an increase of a function within the department something
has to go out the door to stay under the cap. Neither the
commissioner nor he is willing to trade troopers, clerical support,
or fingerprint expertise for something at this point in time. The
department supports the concept, however. It is extremely
important for firemen to have a minimum amount of training along
with standards. He just questions whether it is appropriately
placed within the Department of Public Safety. He has some
concerns about creating a law and not funding it on speculation.
Number 0941
CRAIG GOODRICH, Director State Fire Marshal, Division of Fire
Prevention, Department of Public Safety, testified via
teleconference in Anchorage. He stated the department is concerned
about the fiscal note and its impact on the department. The funds
will need to be provided in order to provide the necessary support.
However, if the bill included language articulating funding outside
of the legislature, for example, then it would lessen its impact on
the department.
Number 1033
KEVIN KELLY, Member, Rural Deltana Fire Department; Vice President,
Rural Deltana Fire Protection District, testified via
teleconference from Delta Junction. He noted he has Version B of
the bill and is concerned about the volunteer fire departments,
especially in rural areas, attempting to attain the standards set
out by the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association. It would be extremely
difficult for Delta Junction because of the number of hours of
mandatory annual training. The vast majority of Alaska is covered
by volunteers. Delta Junction's coverage area within its district
is about 50 miles north-south and 35 miles east-west. There are
two fire stations and about 26 volunteers. Delta Junction also
responds to some parts outside of its district that have no
coverage whatsoever. Version "B" of the bill would put an end to
any fire coverage by volunteers throughout the Delta Junction area
and other rural areas.
Number 1115
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS noted that further testimony from Kenai will
answer a lot of the questions.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Mr. Kelly whether the current standards
for volunteers are local standards or are there statewide
standards.
MR. KELLY replied Delta Junction tries to follow the National Fire
Protection Association's (NFPA) standards as close as possible. He
suggested hearing from Audrey Brown to answer some of those types
of questions.
Number 1153
AUDREY BROWN, Member, Rural Deltana Fire Department, testified via
teleconference in Delta Junction. She has been a member of the
Rural Deltana Fire Department for about three years and was also a
member in the mid-1980s. She is also a emergency medical
technician (EMT) I in Delta Junction and certified through the
state. She also has a law office and private practice in Delta
Junction. The fire department has primary funds for fire
protection for the entire area, including 50 miles down the Alaska
Highway towards Tok, 35 miles north on the Richardson Highway
towards Birch Lake, and 65 miles south of the Richardson Highway
towards Paxson. The fire department is composed of volunteers with
a wide age range of folks. Most are employed at full-time jobs.
The fire department trains for skills regularly needed for fire
situations typically encountered - water supply, engineering,
extricating, and general fire fighting situations. In addition,
the fire department participates annually in training offered by
the local Department of Natural Resource's forestry office. If
Version "B" is passed, it would effectively shut down the
department. In addition, if the department does not meet the
standards by July 1, 1999, and responds to a fire, everyone would
be guilty of committing a misdemeanor.
CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the Version E of the bill is in route to
all the teleconference sites.
Number 1266
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Ms. Brown as an EMT I whether she has to
pursue a state sanctioned certificate.
MS. BROWN replied, "Yes." The training is offered in Delta
Junction.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated he would expect the same standards from
a firefighter, even a volunteer firefighter. He asked Ms. Brown
whether she can see the value of some statewide minimum amount of
standards.
MS. BROWN replied she can see value to some statewide minimum
amount of standards. However, the current training program is
providing the skills needed. These are skills that are not
necessarily included in firefighter-I training, but are absolutely
necessary in Delta Junction. She agrees that there should be some
amount of minimum skills, but she does not agree with adopting
national skills that are applicable to New York City, for example,
without considering the additional training needed for rural
departments.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Ms. Brown whether it would be fair to
say that she would like state standards, but ones that take into
consideration Alaska's unique concerns.
MS. BROWN replied, "Yes." The unique concerns of Delta Junction
are quite different than Kenai, Anchorage, or Fairbanks, for
example. Delta Junction's volunteers work full time, and the NFPA
requirements are an impossibility for a great number of folks. She
reiterated there already is mandated training in Delta Junction
tailored to meet its needs.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated he didn't mean to indicate Alaska's
unique standards. He meant statewide standards and the variety of
situations that firefighters might find themselves in.
Number 1400
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Ms. Brown whether the training should be in
the locales which would add a significant amount to the cost, or
whether there should be a central place for training.
MS. BROWN replied, if volunteers were mandated to go to a
particular place for training, Delta Junction would probably loose
most of the volunteers. She reiterated the training is done
specifically for the needs of Delta Junction. For example, there
are many volunteers who are in different stages of their training.
Number 1503
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Ms. Brown whether the training is done by
certified trainers.
MS. BROWN replied, "No."
Number 1465
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER noted the Alaska Police Standards Council
requires basic instruction within the first year of employment.
There isn't a requirement for auxiliary officers or reserve
officers which are tantamount to volunteer firefighters. The
training received is standardized, but there is the ability of any
rural department to submit a training syllabus to the council for
certification that can be implemented locally.
Number 1503
CHAIRMAN GREEN stated there is a basic manual common to everybody
with a chapter or two specified for each area.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated there probably are basic firefighter
qualifications that can be established relevant to everyone. Then,
from that point forward, based on locales, there can be in-service
training for special needs.
Number 1532
MICHAEL McGOWAN, President, Alaska Fire Chiefs Association,
testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. The association is not
advocating that the NFPA standards be the only standards,
especially in rural Alaska. The association is well aware that
firefighter-I standards are too much for smaller departments to
meet. The association is advocating for a firefighters standards
council to be established. There are NFPA and other standards that
would allow smaller departments to adopt an incipient fire
department. They would not make entries into building, for
example. The association is also aware that there are a lot of
volunteers. It is not advocating that the standards be mandatory
like the police standards for employment.
Number 1606
DAVID TYLER testified via teleconference in Homer. The term "fire
service professionals" applies to everybody. Part of the reason
behind the legislation is to help get some training into the rural
areas. The Alaska Fire Chiefs Association recognizes that the
Rural Deltana Fire Department doesn't have the need to train for
high-rise fire fighting, for example. The idea for standards is to
get the state on an even keel. This is why he is supporting the
bill - a better level of training statewide. The training could
still be done in Delta Junction, but the curriculum and direction
would be supplied for their needs.
Number 1690
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether there is anyone on the teleconference
network that can speak to the amendment deleting the last few pages
of the bill.
MR. TYLER explained part of the reason is to take areas like
Deltana into consideration and to provide for their needs.
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if those sections of the bill were deleted and
the required training was left to the local areas rather than
leaving 90 percent of the training uniformed and 10 percent
specialized for an area, would the intent of the bill be negated.
MR. TYLER replied, "No." The council would have to approve the
training programs for a local area.
Number 1777
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to the Alaska firefighters and fire
instructions fund, and stated it sounds like a dedicated fund. He
pointed out that there are constitutional problems with a dedicated
fund.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS noted that provision would be deleted, if
the amendment is adopted.
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether there is anybody to answer
Representative Bunde's question in regards to the dedicated fund.
Number 1844
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated the provision doesn't have a
constitutional problem. It reads, "The fund consists of
appropriations made by the legislature to the fund." It is a fund
like any other fund that might receive program receipts from the
licensing fee.
Number 1865
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE agreed with Representative Porter's take on
the provision. However, if it is indented to be a dedicated fund,
it needs to be looked at more closely. If the provision is to stay
in the bill, there would be another group advocating for money to
fill a fund.
Number 1891
REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG stated the bill looks similar to the
structure of the professional boards and commissions with the
exception of such things as the surety fund for the Real Estate
Commission - impounded money returned to consumers in the event of
a misdeed. He doesn't recall seeing any kind of fund for boards or
commissions, however. It just goes to the general fund.
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Representative Rokeberg whether there is money
coming back from the general fund for the other boards and
commissions.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied there are actual program receipts,
but this goes through the general fund. There aren't any
stipulated funds.
CHAIRMAN GREEN noted most are a two-way street. In other words,
they aren't just funding.
Number 1957
MR. McGOWAN asked whether the amendment would delete the specific
language of "fire fighters and fire instructors" and include the
broad term of "fire service professionals" throughout the bill.
CHAIRMAN GREEN replied that is his understanding.
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied that is correct.
MR. McGOWAN stated he would very much support that. There are many
different titles in fire fighting including volunteers.
Number 2017
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated there are a number of references to
"fire fighter or fire instructor" throughout the bill. It is
probably up to the bill drafter, to be consistent throughout the
bill. There might be some problems if it mentions fire service
professionals in the title, but only speaks to fire fighters and
fire instructors throughout the bill.
MR. McGOWAN stated another appropriate word is "fire service
personnel." Either fire service personnel or fire service
professional throughout the entire bill would be more consistent.
Number 2060
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated whatever term is it needs to be
defined in detail. Janitors, for example, don't need the same
training, but they are fire service personnel.
Number 2090
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE wondered whether the more appropriate term is
"fire service personnel" rather than "fire service professional."
A professional is also a volunteer.
Number 2110
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated that according to his take on the
bill, volunteers would be exempt from the required certification.
Number 2120
DAVID SQUIRES testified via teleconference in Seward. He said he
supports the current version of the bill. He understands what
Rural Deltana Fire Department is saying, but there needs to be a
state standard for the medical personnel. He can see where meeting
a standard puts a big bind on the volunteer staff. Therefore, the
standards should be community driven. As far as exchanging the
language to "fire service personnel," he believes the volunteers
should be included with the paid personnel. For years there has
been a dual standard, and the Alaska Fire Fighters Association has
tried to eliminate the difference between the two. "What's good
for one, is good for them all," he declared.
Number 2200
JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor, City of Kenai, testified via teleconference
in Kenai. The first requirement is to establish the Alaska Fire
Fighters Standards Council to give way to the creation of
standards. The council is required in the bill to consult and
cooperate with municipalities, agencies of the state, other
governmental agencies, universities, colleges, and other
institutions concerning the development of firefighter and fire
instructor training schools and programs of the Department of
Public Safety. He thinks, if everyone keeps his eye on the intent
of the bill to establish the council by the effective date of July
1, 1999, the council could in the meantime work towards the
creation of grandfather rights and grace periods.
Number 2270
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated he is not too sure what the Alaska
Fire Chiefs Association is trying to accomplish. He asked Mr.
Williams to tell him why a bureaucracy is needed to be established.
MR. WILLIAMS replied to his complete surprise the only public
safety people in the state of Alaska that are not standardized are
the fire departments. Every other public safety group within the
state has standards.
Number 2344
JASON ELSON testified via teleconference in Kenai. He informed the
committee he is a member of the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association. He
supports the committee substitute and the amendment. The language
is very similar to the Alaska Police Standards Council in statute.
In regards to the fund, it is neither a special nor dedicated fund.
In regards to the deleted language starting on page 3, he wondered
whether it is the bread-and-butter of the police council. He is
not sure whether the sections should be deleted. In regards to the
effective date, he noted it is the effective date for the council
and not the date for the standards to be adopted.
Number 2415
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Elson whether the bill is a
certification process for paid personnel and not volunteers.
MR. ELSON replied, "No, sir." The bill is to establish a council
to help develop standards for fire service personnel across the
state, including paid personnel, volunteers, industrial fire
brigade personnel, and airport crash fire and rescue personnel, for
example. The Alaska Fire Chiefs Association is not asking for all
personnel to meet the same standards, but is asking for communities
to buy into a level that they feel is needed to protect their
assets.
Number 2443
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Elson whether the communities would buy
into a procedure common to all with some nuances, or some sort of
training specific to their locations.
MR. ELSON responded, "I think either one or both."
TAPE 98-58, SIDE B
Number 0000
SCOTT WALDEN testified via teleconference from Kenai. He stated he
is in support of the bill.
Number 0014
DAVE BURNETT testified via teleconference from Kenai. The idea
behind the bill is to provide organization and continuity within
the fire services statewide, including volunteers and paid
personnel. The council would cooperate with the municipalities to
provide the necessary training for the different areas. He
supports the bill.
Number 0036
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Burnett whether he agrees that the bill
wouldn't necessarily mean the same training throughout the state,
but that there would be some continuity with some nuances depending
on the area.
MR. BURNETT replied, "Yes."
Number 0046
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked Mr. Elson whether the bill would
cover the long list of emergency service personnel that he cited
earlier. He wants to make sure that the intent of the bill is to
cover what he would categorize as personnel other than
firefighters.
MR. ELSON replied the personnel that he listed are firefighters,
not necessarily professional firefighters or volunteers. They are
firefighters in the private sector such as, industrial fire brigade
and airport crash fire and rescue personnel. Yes, standards for
them would be developed and adopted and the council would oversee
them.
Number 0085
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated the way the bill is drafted falls
short of including persons performing fire suppression services.
He read the following language:
"'fire fighter' means a person who performs fire
prevention of fire suppression services as an employee or
volunteer with a fire department registered with the
state fire marshal."
MR. ELSON stated the Alaska Police Standards Council addresses
those members involved in the Department of Fish and Game and
correctional officers, for example.
Number 0130
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER explained there are two levels of
certification for police officers - below a community of 1,000 and
above a community of 1,000. The council struggled for four years
to distinguish between standards for the two levels. It then
addressed the Village Public Safety Officers (VPSOs) and
correctional officers. The creation of an Alaska Fire Fighters
Standards Council is asking for a monumental task. He believes
that the standards should be brought back to the legislature for
confirmation. Some legislators will probably be long gone before
they comes back, however.
Number 0180
MR. McGOWAN stated the majority of the work has already been done.
There are many national standards that already exist. "We're not
looking at reinventing the wheel," he declared. Although there is
concern of setting standards too high for the rural and volunteer
departments to meet, there are lower standards even within the
NFPA, such as fire brigade standards. In addition, many standards
are already mandated by the Occupational Safety and Health
Administration (OSHA). The departments that aren't meeting those
standards voluntarily are putting their necks on the chopping block
in the event of a lawsuit.
Number 0230
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated they would be even more so by Alaska's
standards.
Number 0247
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether the individuals who are presently
engaged in fire fighting would be given a grace period to qualify.
Number 0274
MR. ELSON replied it is the intent of the Alaska Fire Chiefs
Association to allow for a grace period and grandfather clause.
The members who currently meet the standards would be
grandfathered, and there would be a grace period to meet any new
standard. It is not intended to make everyone come on line
automatically.
Number 0307
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Elson whether there is any
opposition from the departments.
MR. ELSON replied the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association has taken
great efforts to try to network with many of the departments. It
has held meetings and teleconferences regarding the issue. It has
informed its constituents in the Alaska Fire Fighters Association.
It has worked with the state fire marshall's office, the entire
Department of Public Safety, and the commissioner. At this time,
the general consent is that legislation is needed to develop a fire
service standards council.
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Elson whether there was any consideration
given to volunteer firefighters who come from other states to help
with a fire situation such as Millers Reach.
MR. ELSON replied generally they already meet certification
standards in other states. If they were to take up residency in
the state, there have been past cases where individuals have
challenged or tested to meet standards. There is no opposition to
that.
MR. McGOWAN stated the issue of standards is to recognize some type
of reciprocity, if Alaska recognizes the national standards.
Number 0435
CHAIRMAN GREEN stated he is concerned about states that don't have
standards and volunteers who are pressed into service.
MR. McGOWAN stated a good Samaritan wouldn't be required to follow
these standards, but a person in an organized fire department would
be.
Number 0469
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE first asked, if there is support for the
original bill, why is there an amendment. Secondly, he sees
nothing in the bill that addresses a phase-in. Thirdly, he sees
language that needs to be cleaned up for consistency before he can
vote on this bill.
Number 0485
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG agreed with Representative Bunde. He is
concerned that there hasn't been any real discussion on the
forestry aspect of the bill and how it fits into the scheme. He
noticed that there is a letter in the packet from Soldonta, Chief
Len A. Malmquist, who mentions that the Alaska Fire Chiefs
Association proposes a $1 per capita and program receipt concept as
a stable funding source for the council. He is afraid it will be
hard to sell the bill because of its fiscal note. The other
professional boards and commissions are mandated to be self-
sustaining through program receipts. He understands that this is
a different thing and more analogous to the Alaska Police Standards
Council. However, the lesson is how it fits into the public's need
for the development of statewide standards and how it is handled
with the public's treasury. It seems the way is to establish
standards without the bureaucracy.
Number 0571
CHAIRMAN GREEN concurred with Representative Rokeberg. The sponsor
has indicated that there is hope for a zero fiscal note, but the
testimony has indicated the contrary. In light of the concerns, he
would prefer that the sponsor take another look at the bill and
incorporate some of the things that have been discussed today.
Number 0605
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated he would go ahead and make changes to
the bill in order to satisfy the committee members, then bring it
back.
HJR 60 - COMMUNITY DIVIDEND FUND
Number 0616
CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the committee would address HJR 60,
"Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska
relating to the community dividend fund, the permanent fund, and
the budget reserve fund," sponsored by Representative Davis.
REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS came before the committee to explain his
resolution. One of the reasons he introduced the legislation is
because of budget constraints. He stated as a member of the House
Finance Committee, he has become aware of the complexities involved
with our budget cutting process and the elimination of programs.
Representative Davis said, "We need to look at how we ... operate
state government, what we provide for the citizens of our state
compared to how other states operate and what they provide. Of
course we have a uniqueness in Alaska that is different than other
states. Our manufacturing opportunities are not as great and there
is a large tax base associated with manufacturing operations.
Industry is a similar situation. Our population base is not large
enough to where property taxes, sales taxes and things like that
don't generate as much dollars as they do in other states. Our law
enforcement enforcing laws and local ordinances and regulations is
weak at best. With myself, living on the Kenai River in a
community that the Kenai River runs through, we consistently hear
of fishing violations that people are getting absolutely fed up
with, but there is no enforcement. There is no dollars for
enforcement. There is no additional dollars, no increases in those
dollars for enforcement of those type of activities. And of course
the municipal funding needs, most of what I just talked about, in
most places provide an economic base for most municipalities to
provide for the services of the citizens of each community. In
Alaska, we provide lots of those dollars. There is lists of what
we provide and I think ... probably in every page of the ... state
budget we can see things that the state provides to local
municipalities that, under normal circumstances in most places,
local municipalities provide those funds, and those services, and
the dollars to provide those services. So we have a unique
situation." Representative Davis indicated if there was a larger
tax base and opportunity for industry in communities, the
municipalities would be able to provide for themselves. He
continued to inform the committee members of several programs that
the state currently funds. Representative Davis informed the
committee he introduced the resolution to provide an endowment for
municipalities. He stated that he proposes that some seed money,
$750 million, from the constitutional budget reserve fund, be used.
He stated he has also proposed 2 percent of the permanent fund
earnings be used to supplement $750 million on an annual basis. He
informed the committee that his understanding of the intent of the
permanent fund was to provide revenues to the state when our oil
wealth is diminished to the degree that we cannot adequately
provide government services to the people of the state. He
indicated this would provide dollars for the future. The initial
set up of the fund would come close to what the state is currently
providing in municipal assistance and revenue sharing.
Municipalities are concerned as to what their annual appropriations
will be. If the resolution is passed by the legislature, the
question would then go the voters as it would be a dedicated fund
and would require a constitutional change.
Number 1146
CHAIRMAN GREEN stated there are some estimates for 20 years from
now that the amount of money that is generated by the permanent
fund may be too low to take care of inflation-proofing and
permanent fund dividends (PFD). He said, "And that if we put this,
as it says 'not withstanding' that would set that, I presume, above
the other two categories. Has there been any thought to that
possibility other than just some concerns? I haven't heard or seen
any projections to that effect, but I've certainly heard that
concern expressed."
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES explained that the intent is put the 2
percent draw above those. The 2 percent draw is for 20 years also.
Depending on how the numbers come out on when there may be a draw
down to not even be able cover inflation proofing, the 20 years
could be adjusted. He noted that even the 2 percent could be
withdrawn. The legislation is flexible and is drafted to generate
discussion on all the issues.
Number 1227
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to legislature often being criticized
for the volume of per capita amount of state spending when the
local governments don't pick up a good portion of the funding in
other areas. Representative Bunde referred to the 2 percent figure
and asked if that wouldn't be better spent statewide by the
legislature rather than in the local arenas. Representative Bunde
referred to the municipalities having a dividend coming in and
asked if wouldn't encourage residents of those municipalities to
demand services at a higher level because they're not going to have
to pay for them as money would come in off the dividend. He asked
how the dividend would deal with specific services that aren't
currently state services. He referenced that in Anchorage there
are hybrid roads that belong to the state and are maintained by the
city and, in other words, nobody is responsible for them.
Number 1336
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS referred to the maintenance of highways and
roads and explained that the state has been trying to negotiate
with municipalities to take over some of that maintenance. He
informed the committee that in Soldotna the there is a five mile
long road and there are six or eight roads off of that road. The
state maintains the long road and the municipality maintains some
of side roads. The state doesn't maintain anything across the
highway. If the legislation passes, it would offer opportunity to
simplify the process.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER offered his congratulations for bringing the
issue up as it is one that needs discussion. He said
Representative Davies indicated that the numbers would be pretty
close to what the municipal revenue sharing and municipal
assistance budget currently is.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said he has information that shows the current
revenue sharing dollars for FY 98 is $22 million. He indicated
that currently there is about $50 million being paid out by the
state into those two accounts. A proposed income for the first
year would be about $76 million.
Number 1518
DEB DAVIDSON, Legislative Administrative Assistant to
Representative Gary Davis, Alaska State Legislature, came before
the committee. She said, "If we're looking at the pay out to the
community dividend fund the interest from the fund, as estimated by
the -- the permanent fund did the actual projections, the income
pay out in the first year from the interest earned on what was put
into the municipal dividend fund would be right around $56 million
depending on whether or not you decided to inflation proof or how
you wanted to inflation-proof and also depending on the type of
investments that were made."
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS noted that you would want to try and increase
the principal as much as possible, at least initially, and not have
100 percent pay out. He stated that you may look at an 80 percent
or 90 percent pay out. You would want to keep some additional
dollars to increase the principal over time.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he would assume that there wouldn't be
an adverse impact on projected dividends and inflation-proofing.
MS. DAVIDSON said there may be a table in the committee file that
lists some projections on the effect of the PFD. By taking the 2
percent off of the income, the amounts needed for inflation-
proofing and the PFD would not change as the 2 percent would not be
subtracted out of the calculations. The change would be in the
balance of the earnings reserve account over the years.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said, "The initial proposed hits to the
dividend would be zero. At 20 years, it would be about $20. So
it's an average of $10. If you take all the money over 20 years,
it would be an average of $10, a year, hit on the dividend."
Number 1826
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Representative Davis if he is
anticipating the same general distribution criteria that currently
exists.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS explained that the legislation speaks to
organized municipalities that are organized under Title 29. He
said he believes that there are currently some municipal assistance
dollars being distributed to unorganized municipalities. The
resolution was drafted to generate discussion on whether the state
should distribute to areas not organized under Title 29.
Number 1872
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said former Governor Hickel has spoke about
something similar. Governor Hickel had taken the approach that the
legislature would look at each individual allocation of the PFD and
take a percentage or allocate a percentage of that to the political
subdivision of the resident of which that permanent fund was
directed to. He asked Representative Davis if he as looked at
other methodologies to try and reach the same goal.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said he got the idea from Governor Hickel. He
stated that he believes Governor Hickel's proposal is mirrored in
a resolution submitted by Representative Moses. His understanding
is that it caps the PFD. It still uses the dividend formula, and
anything above the cap would be distributed into this account. He
stated it also utilizes 100 percent of the balance of the earnings
reserve and puts that into the account. He stated he isn't sure
how long the balance of the earnings reserve fund and the cap on
the dividends would be utilized. Representative Davis stated he
introduced his resolution because he didn't feel that previous
proposals he discussed wouldn't be acceptable at this time by the
voters. He noted his 2 percent figure is not a vital part of his
resolution and he used it to generate public discussion.
Number 2163
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said one of the things that vexes him is the
same people who are critical of the legislature not reducing state
spending enough are also critical of the legislature reducing
municipal revenue sharing. He said, "And I would find one problem
with this idea is that they're getting theirs so they would still
be then very critical of state spending in other areas because this
money is going to organize cities and boroughs. As a resident of
an organized city, I could see some advantage to that, however, I
could also anticipate some criticism from people who live in
unorganized areas. And I'm wonder if you think this might be, (1)
and incentive to organize and start paying for some of the services
they feel they need; and (2) how do we respond to the notion that
this is using the people's money, the permanent fund, for ... part
of Alaska rather than if the money went to the legislature, it
would be available for appropriation to all of us?"
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said it is true that it uses the people's
money, but it's also going to the people. He stated he has had
reservations, since drafting the resolution, about not including
the unorganized areas. For simplicity, it should be distributed
under the current formula that revenue sharing is distributed,
which would include all organized and unorganized areas of the
state. The money is the people's money and it would go to the
people which he believes is an intent of the permanent fund.
Representative Davis said, "We choose to distribute the people's
money in dividends and we've chosen to inflation proof and we've
chosen to hold on to the balance and keep it into an account and
redistribute it into the principal. Those are what the legislature
has chosen to do to meet what apparently the legislature feels is
the intent of the permanent fund. But I also think its generating
discussion is the intent, also, to share the wealth with
municipalities, which in turn - I mean under this proposal and
there is no strings attached to these dollars like there are to
other dollars that the state distributes to municipalities. If
Anchorage wanted to form their own dividend and distribute those
dollars to the people that they receive, that would be their
prerogative. There is no strings attached to these. So it is
going to the people. The municipalities, by ordinance, would be
spending these dollars. If the people realize there is a chunk of
money coming to the municipality from this fund, the people could
go to their assembly...."
TAPE 98-59, SIDE A
Number 0001
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said although there has been a lot of ideas
on what should be the first public purpose use instead of
individual dividends for the earnings of the permanent fund, his
problem with most of them was they highlighted one particular area
of need in the state and didn't address the other needs. It was
extremely hard to justify one salient need over one or two other
salient needs that wouldn't be receiving those funds.
Representative Porter said his opinion is the resolution is as
close as he has seen to an appropriate first crack as it does
distribute these earnings where they belong - to the people.
Number 0201
JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor, City of Kenai, testified via teleconference
from Kenai in support of HJR 60. He stated he is pleased with
Representative Davis' decision to introduce the legislation. The
concept of the resolution is something that he has been discussing
around the state with many groups and people. He elaborated on
discussion he had with former Governor Hickel who suggested keeping
it simple. Mr. Williams pointed out the Alaska Municipal League
(AML) has looked at the concept of the legislation as a great way
to solve differences between the legislature and communities with
regard to continuing efforts in municipal assistance and revenue
funds. The Alaska Mayors Association has taken up the call of an
educational process that hopefully will lead to an amendment to the
constitution. Mr. Williams said the numbers are correct with
regard to the 2 percent earnings. He referred to the unorganized
areas and said they look to their borough assembly, which is the
Alaska State Legislature. He stated, "We have handled that
situation through AML by having a $40,000 hold harmless agreement
with those groups and villagers who could apply and I'm sure that
could be built into the distribution of funds from the community
dividend program. The Alaska Humanities Forum has been traveling
around the state for several months now holding public hearings.
I've attended two of them." Mr. Williams said HJR 60 is a definite
move in a positive direction. He urged the committee to continue
the education process and the development of the community dividend
program.
Number 0510
GEORGE CARNAHAN testified via teleconference from Kenai against HJR
60. He stated, "I'm opposed to this House Joint Resolution 60
because you've imposed a tobacco tax - all different kinds of taxes
and give the oil companies money. They won't charge them full
appraisals on their property and they turn around and want to take
it out on us second class citizens pockets. And I think the
Governor has got to get real and think -- maybe they got to do what
China done here last week, they cut half their government in half."
Number 0572
KEVIN RITCHIE, Executive Director, Alaska Municipal League,
testified in support of HJR 60. He thanked Representative Davis
for introducing the resolution. Mr. Ritchie stated that he
believes Representative Davis outlined very nicely the old reality
of the state budget and revenues and the new reality of the state
budget and revenues. Mr. Ritchie stated one reality is that the
interest earnings from the Alaska's savings account, including the
permanent fund, have exceeded any other source of revenue for the
state of Alaska. It is a vast economic resource that truly does
need to be discussed as to that is used. Mr. Ritchie said the
reality the AML sees on a municipal level is that people are not
asking for less maintenance on roads, schools or boat harbors.
They're asking for things to be done probably at a higher rate than
they're being done today. The question is, "Who is going to pay
for that?" He asked if we are going to use the current resources
that are available or is the property tax going to be the key way
of funding municipal services. He continued to discuss schools and
how they are funded with the mill rate. Mr. Ritchie referred to
the taxes that people pay on their PFD and pointed out the money
sent to the federal government could be sent to communities instead
by cutting the local taxpayer out of the route. There is a
tremendous amount of potential. He referred to it being a real
valid question as to how responsibilities are allocated between
state and local government and pointed out that a number of local
governments, that are water-based municipalities, are willing to
take over ownership of their state boat harbor after good repairs
are done by the state. He noted the same thing for roads being
transferred to the municipalities. Mr. Ritchie pointed out that
the constitution puts the legislature clearly in charge of what the
municipalities do and how they do it. The legislature will always
be in charge one way or the other. He pointed out the AML and the
Alaska Conference of Mayors are not specifically endorsing one
process of doing this as the only way. They are just trying to get
the public in productive discussions of how this vast resource can
be used. Mr. Ritchie gave committee members a resolution that was
adopted the previous week by the Alaska Conference of Mayors and
the AML board of directors. He thanked the committee for listening
to his testimony.
CHAIRMAN GREEN indicated there were no further witnesses to testify
and asked what the wish was of the committee.
Number 0962
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER pointed out the total pay out in PFDs is $500
million a year. If you figure an average of 20 percent in taxes,
$100 million per year is being sent to the federal government.
Representative Porter moved and asked unanimous consent to move HJR
60 out of committee with individual recommendations. There being
no objection, HJR 60 moved out of the House Judiciary Standing
Committee.
HB 474 - CERTIFY MUNICIPAL CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS
Number 1045
CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the final item of business would be HB
474, "An Act relating to correctional officers." He called on
Laddie Shaw to testify, noting that they are trying to make anyone
in charge of incarcerating state prisoners meet a standard that all
other incarcerating officers meet.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said, "Move it."
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG inquired whether there is a fiscal note.
CHAIRMAN GREEN pointed out that there is a zero fiscal note.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked where the money is coming from to do
this.
Number 1066
LADDIE SHAW, Executive Director, Alaska Police Standards Council,
noted that with him was Barbara Murray, Community Jails
Coordinator, Division of Administrative Services, Department of
Corrections. He told members that if this is approved, the
training will come from the existing surcharge, which exists for
them as a regulatory authority for training for law enforcement and
corrections.
Number 1097
CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether there were further questions or any
objections to moving the bill. Hearing no objection, he announced
that HB 474 was moved from the House Judiciary Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1102
CHAIRMAN GREEN adjourned the House Judiciary Standing Committee
meeting at 3:05 p.m.
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